Robert Pho – Grandmaster of Portrait Tattoos by Marla Santos
When you walk into Robert Pho’s Skin Design Studio, the walls are covered with the most incredible art, as well as write-ups and awards. You probably have little knowledge of Robert, as there isn’t a whole lot out there except his masterpiece portraits done in black and grey and art of his beloved Pit Bull dogs. You can find many of his fans on the Internet and people absolutely gushing over his work, but there isn’t much personal material about this extraordinarily talented man. In this interview, we hear the remarkable story of Robert Pho, from growing up in a poor Los Angeles neighborhood with many obstacles to overcome, to learning how to survive and become an incredible tattoo artist. If you’re lucky enough to get in to have work done by him, you’ll find he is a man who is fascinating, unpretentious though gifted, and someone you won’t easily forget.
SLV: Tell me a little bit about yourself.
PHO: I’m of Chinese descent. I was born in Cambodia and all my family is from there. We left when I was about two, because of the war. We moved to France and lived there for about eight years and then to LA. where I spent my teenage life.
SLV: Did you have any idea that you were going to get into tattooing?
PHO: No, no. I’d been drawing since I was five. I wasn’t always good, but the interest was there. I’ve always been quiet, and drawing was always my passion and time to get away.
SLV: Did you speak English when you came to L.A.?
PHO: No I didn’t, but I went to school and it wasn’t hard to learn because I was 10 years old. We didn’t have anybody but our Mom and Dad that could speak Cambodian, and all the kids in the neighborhood spoke English, so we had to learn it. teenage years. my Mom and said, “I’m kind of happy here. I have everything I want and if I get out, what am I going to do? I have nothing.” I’m already old and can’t go back to school. I have no money to go back to school. My parents are still poor, so what am I going to do? Go back and do the same thing again? So when I got out I started to tattoo one guy here, and a next guy here, and a couple more guys.
SLV: Were they your gang guys and did you get back into gang life?
PHO: No. That lifestyle died out. Everybody grew up and had kids and stuff like that. It was different, not like before. So after I tattooed a couple guys, they brought me more and they brought me girls and my gang tattoos now turned into butterflies and tribals, and things that meant something to them. Slowly, it transitioned into art.
SLV: When did you start doing your Pit Bulls and your portraits?
PHO: I’ve always had a thing for Pit Bulls. Growing up, I saw them everywhere, so I always had the love for them. It was kind of like the neighborhood dog-really tough.
PHO: The teenage years were really tough for me. I grew up in a very bad neighborhood and there were gangs.
SLV: Did you become part of a gang?
PHO: Yes, I did. It was kind of a protection thing, but at the same time it was kind of cool to be a part of it. I didn’t think it would lead me to where it got me.
SLV: Do you mean you spent some time in prison?
PHO: Yes, I did some stuff and they gave me fourteen years and I ended up serving seven. I was 16 years old. They tried me as an adult, and that’s where I learned the tattooing. SLV: You learned in prison? PHO: Yeah. I had never tattooed before.
SLV: But you didn’t have tattoo tools and ink in prison..
PHO: Yeah, we did. We made our own. The ink was homemade. You know those little chess pieces? We’d burn them, collect the ashes, and mix it up with shampoo, water, and toothpaste. Not the most sanitary. We never used gloves.
SLV: Was it a pretty horrific experience, being in prison?
PHO: No, because becoming a tattoo artist in there was probably the best thing that happened to me. It was kind of like a survival tool. I became somebody, and especially if you’re good, everybody wants you and takes care of you. It was a good job to have in there.
SLV: Did they allow you to tattoo in there or was it on the down low?
PHO: No, you had to do it on the down low. Every time you got busted, you got an extra 30 days. To be honest, I probably did six months extra for being busted, because I got caught so many times tattooing myself and tattooing other people. That’s part of the life style in there.
SLV: So you got out of jail….
PHO: I got out of jail and I had no other skill. I never graduated high school or junior high, so I was very worried. The last three months before I was to be released, I was very, very nervous. I called my sister and
SLV: Tell me about the Pit Bulls that you are selling as flash.
PHO: That was a very successful set. Flash are pictures that you draw that another tattooist can buy and then copy.
SLV: They can buy it, but that doesn’t mean it will turn out the same as when you do it.
PHO: But it gives them the right to do it. People in the industry, who didn’t know who I was, automatically became aware of me when they saw that.
SLV: Tell me about your portraits.
PHO: I always used to draw portraits on paper, so I understood where the shadows are supposed to be, and the more you do it, the better you get. To a lot of people, it’s a big deal right now. It’s probably one of the hardest things to do.
SLV: You can draw it on paper, but to transfer it to someone’s skin must be incredibly hard.
PHO: No joke! The difference is that skin is unforgivable. You can’t erase. There’s no second chance. I like the pressure of doing portraits. The harder it is, the more challenging it is for me, because it has to be perfect. You can’t make a mistake and that’s what I love.
SLV: You prefer the black and grey over color?
PHO: I do. I think growing up the way I did, using pencil, I never drew with colored pencils. I’d say probably 95 percent of my work is in black and grey. I used to do a lot more color, but people now recognize me for my black and grey and want me to do that.
SLV: How many hours a week do you tattoo?
PHO: I usually work 6-7 days for the whole day. I’m booked so far ahead, that when someone comes in, they want to sit for as long as possible, because if they sit for 3 hours, then they have to wait for another five or six months to get back in.
SLV: How long of a session can you work before you’re burned out?
PHO: I feel like I’m still young and have a lot still in me, so I can go 8, 9, 10 hours, sometimes 12. It’s a long day, but I enjoy it.
SLV: You moved to Vegas in 2005. Why Vegas?
PHO: Before that I spent about six years in North Carolina. After I got off parole, I had a friend that lived in N.C. and we did a joint venture together and it was a perfect place because in wasn’t expensive. Our rent was $200 a month. So starting out, it was good to have it cheaper. We came to the point where it was nice, but I wanted to go someplace that was a city, because by then, tattooing had become really, really popular. It seems like the West Coast is a little more advanced than the East Coast. The East Coast seems a little slower paced. Here, everybody knows what they want and they have the money.
SLV: And people come here from all over the world?
PHO: Yeah. About 50 percent of my clients travel to see me. Some drive from California or come from different countries. SLV: Tell me about the expos and conventions. PHO: I do some, maybe 3 to 5 a year. They are national conventions. I haven’t gone overseas. Next year I want to do some international ones. I get invited to a lot of those, so it’s about time I did it.
SLV: Do you have any artists or tattoo artists that you look up to?
PHO: There are so many. When I was in prison, I was reading about guys like Tom Renshaw, Paul Booth, Philip Lou and Robert Hernandez.
SLV: Why do you think tattooing has crossed over to mainstream that way it has?
PHO: Things that were bad before are now becoming acceptable. Young kids that have never been exposed to gang life now like to wear tattoo art on clothes, shoes, everything.
SLV: How diverse is your clientele? Is it everything from a gang member to a lawyer? PHO: Yes. Yes. Very diverse! SLV: What percentage of your clients are women?
PHO: I’d say probably half. More and more women are getting nicer and larger stuff, like the things that I do for the guys.
SLV: Tell me how you would advise a newcomer, someone without a tattoo, to find a good tattoo artist. PHO: I would tell them to look at the artist’s work. Definitely do your research. Go on-line to look, in magazines, or in real life. If you see a great tattoo on someone, ask them who did it. SLV: Do most of your clients bring in a picture?
PHO: A lot of my work is just rendering stuff. People will bring in pictures of loved ones or people that have passed.
SLV: Then what happens?
PHO: I have to redraw it. I have to do it exactly how it’s supposed to be. I have to do it with the proper tools, and a copy machine. You have to get the size you want and then you trace the outline of the head, the eyes, the main features, and once it’s on there, then I do the shading, the lights, and the darks, and that’s where it becomes very tricky.
SLV: What happens if someone wants a famous portrait, like Madonna, Elvis, or Marilyn, whichyou’ve done incredible art on? Do you show them different positions that you’ve done before?
PHO: Yeah, I can, but one of the things that is very important to me is placement on your body. I think a lot of people that know me, recognize me, by the way I place my tattoos. It’s really important, because if you want a portrait like this and your arm’s like that, I would advise you to make it a little bigger, so it looks better on your arm. If you want it just placed randomly. I would ask you to let me do it where it’s more proper looking. Placement is the main thing for me. Sometimes they choose the wrong spot or the wrong picture. If someone wants it on a certain arm and the picture faces toward the back, I would recommend reversing it so it would face the other way.
SLV: You did the Virgin Mary on the ribcage, which I understand can be one of the more painful areas.
PHO: Yeah it is, along with the neck, the hand, the head… The Virgin Mary is really big. It’s huge! It’s from under the armpit all the way down his hip. He’s from Hawall, so he would sit for 4 or 5 hours and then next month he’d have to fly back again. He came in about 6 times.
SLV: Does the pain tolerance have something to do with how long they can sit?
PHO: The pain tolerance is really important, especially if they want something big and on the ribs.
SLV: How about how much they bleed? Does that also have a bearing on how long it can go?
PHO: How they bleed is just how technical you are with it. A lot of people like to go deep and that will cause you to bleed more. Me, I’m real light-handed so there’s hardly any blood that comes out. SLV: What is blood lining?
PHO: Blood lining is what I do when I don’t want something to be really bold. I use water and just a little bit of ink to give me an idea where it’s at. Blood lining and blood shading is where you can hardly see the image. It’s almost like a ghost image.
SLV: Do you see yourself tattooing for the rest of your life?
PHO: Oh, that would be nice. If my hands don’t start to hurt, or my back, as I get older. When I wake up, my hand cramps up and I have to take a few minutes and massage it. I probably Just need to take a few more days off, because I work a lot.
SLV: What kind of machines do you use?
PHO: I use a lot of different machines, custom machines.
SLV: I’ve heard you are putting together a book and instructional DVD.
PHO: It’s still in the process. The book is mostly just my clients and their artwork. It’s not much about me, but it is my work. One DVD will be more like a documentary with footage of work in progress and the other DVD is more instructional on how to do a proper portrait tattooing, but that’s more for tattoo artists to buy.
SLV: How many apprentices have you had?
PHO: I’ve had one apprentice and now I’m working on another one.
SLV: How long do they apprentice with you? PHO: My last one was here for about three years, and this one here, about one year.
SLV: What’s the process for choosing an apprentice?
PHO: First they have to show me good heart. That’s the main thing. Your work can be good, but if you don’t have a good heart, it’s not too good for me. You also have to have some kind of art background, because it’s important. Nowadays there are so many people getting into tattooing that don’t have that background and that makes it tough. All they do is practice on people and destroy the skin. A lot of people are apprenticing in all the wrong way. They’re learning from people that don’t even know anything about doing tattoos.
SLV: So if you’re not good yourself, you shouldn’t be teaching others.
SLV: Do you make them bring in their portfolios tattoo? or audition for you?
PHO: Not really. First, I have to see how bad they really want it. I have to see where their heart is at, where their mind is at. They almost have to deserve to be taught. There are so many people that want to apprentice with me, work with me, and offer to pay me to watch me work. I think, for me, there’s more than that. I know I have something that people want, but having one apprentice and teaching him everything you know is something special. It has to be a special person that I hand this down to, not just anybody.
SLV: What is it in you, that tells you about a person’s heart and integrity? Are you a faithful person, or one that believes in Karma?
PHO: Yes, I definitely believe in Karma. You can feel a person’s vibe when you meet them, and then of course, you have to get to know them. You go to their place and then you invite them to your house. So there’s a lot that goes on.
SLV: So you’re relying on your own feeling and your own gut to let you know?
PHO: Yes, yes. I know these couple of guys that have been coming around here for two to three years, but there’s something that’s not making me say yes to them.
SLV: Is it a man or woman that’s apprenticing with you now?
PHO: Right now, it’s a woman. Before that, it was a guy.
SLV: Why do you think there are more men tattoo artists than women?
PHO: I think tattooing has always been more of a man thing in the past. Now it’s becoming more acceptable, so there are more women. Before, it was different. When you were a woman giving a tattoo, you were looked at differently. Now, it’s okay. Now it’s acceptable.
SLV: Please go through the process of someone wanting a big plece done.
PHO: If they want a back, and a back is a lot of hours, and if they’re from Russia, it’s kind of tough. They have to show me commitment that they’re going to come here at least once a month. Most likely I’d ask for a deposit for almost every month. If you’re from London and you want to do a whole back, chances are you’re not going to finish it unless you’re serious. The way you show me is to prepay for that time slot every month.
SLV: What kind of an investment would that be for a client who wants a back piece?
PHO: I charge $150 an hour. A back piece can take roughly 50 hours, so about $7,500. This one girl took about 150 hours. She did an Alice in Wonderland theme and it was all in color. It was the most tedious detail. Let me show you. (the picture shows the girl’s back covered in tiny details of ‘Alice in Wonderland-all in bright Infortytwo
PHO: Not really, if the price is right! People ask me for weird places and I’ll say, “Yeah, I’ll do it-just pay me right.” (laughter) SLV: Have you done anyone’s face?
PHO: I haven’t done it yet, but I’m sure eventually I will. I’ve done throats and heads. I did a Jesus portrait on a guy’s head a little while ago.
SLV: What are the challenges of running your own business?
PHO: It’s kind of like a love and hate thing, because you have to be a businessman and that’s the part I really, really hate. With a business there’s so much to do. Everything from writing bills to trying to answer people’s emails, to doing other business stuff like filing out paperwork for conventions. Sometimes, when you’re trying to focus and you have people calling, It can be difficult.
SLV: I heard your wife recently had a baby.
PHO: I have a family and this is my third child. I have a 15 year-old son, a 6 year-old daughter, and a 13 month-old daughter.
SLV: Has your fifteen year-old son wanted a tattoo?
PHO: Yeah, but I told him to wait, because it’ be better when your body’s stopped growing. I I did one on his arm in the middle, by the time he’s twenty, it’ll have moved here or here.
SLV: How about your six year-old daughter?
PHO: Oh, she wants to be a tattoo artist. She can draw and when I draw, she’s there with me. She tells her teachers: “You should get one from my Dad.”
SLV: How do you like Vegas?
PHO: We like it. It’s not like LA, and it’s kind of in the middle between N.C. and LA SLV: Yes, and you get a lot of stars here, too. You see a lot of stars and athletes. They have the money, but their tattoos aren’t very good. I don’t know if they do their research.
SLV: When there are so many tattoos, why do you think there are so many bad ones?
PHO: I think the reason is that people have different eyes. What you see and what I see are two different things. What you might look at and think is good, I think differently.
SLV: Do you get called on to do correction work?
PHO: There are so many. I don’t mind doing a cover-up, but I don’t like to correct ones. Cover-ups are hard to do, but in the long run, they’re so happy, and when you see their face and expression… You sit with people for a long time, so you kind of get to know them, and they can go from being ashamed to feeling really proud when I’m done.
SLV: Tell me your idea of a perfect day.
PHO: I kind of like my day off, because I like spending time with my family, my kids. But I don’t like to be off too long, because I enjoy what I do. This is my life. When I’m not tattooing, I feel weird. We just had a vacation in Maul and I had seven appointments lined up while I was there.
SLV: How far ahead are you booked?
PHO: About five months, and working 6-7 days a week. Next year I’m going to be traveling a lot. I’m in very high demand in Europe right now. A lot of people from magazines are interviewing me from overseas. Europe is different from here. People there are really seeking out good quality tattoo work and are willing to pay for it. England, France and Russia have a high demand for tattoo artists. London has one of the biggest tattoo conventions in the world.
SLV: How many tattoos do you have?
PHO: I’m starting to laser off my old tattoos, so I can redo them.
SLV: Do you think if you hadn’t had to do time in prison, you would have found your way into tattooing?
PHO: I think that was a life-changing thing and I don’t regret it. I think it was meant to be. It changed me, the way I was thinking, and now I look at things differently than when I was younger. I probably wouldn’t have learned tattooing and I would have been stuck in the street life or probably ended up dead.
SLV: You won best artist of the year back in 2007.
PHO: Yeah, Best Artist of the Year 107, at a convention that was held in N.C. I won first place at the convention at Mandalay Bay just recently. There were 1,000 of the world’s best tattoo artists there. The girl that I tattooed won first place, so I got to take home the first place trophy.