Issue #38:
Robert Pho
By Kore Flatmo
KORE FLATMO: Saturday, September 21″. Interview with Robert Pho.
Let’s just start with the background. How many years has it been that you’ve been tattooing?
ROBERT PHO: I’ve been tattooing since 1989. I started in prison, actually, with a guitar string and homemade machine and all that. I’ve always been fascinated with art, but I always lived on the street, kind of. I didn’t really go to school and stuff like that, so I used to just doodle a lot.
Did you leave school early?
Yeah, I left school early. I never graduated from junior high. I never graduated from high school, nothing. But you know what? It’s another great example of people making something real for themselves without “schooling.” I’m a big believer in the idea that if it’s not working for you, you don’t do it. I think there’s too much emphasis on that type of education. If you take that time to develop something for yourself and it leads to something like where we’re at today, where you’re at today, you made something real. Yeah. People sometimes have a hang up about this thing with school, but I say look at the individual you’re talking to, and as you sit in front of me today.
You’re very accomplished and you’ve been successfully tattooing for 24 years?
Yes.
Now, you say you started inside. Was that hard to transfer what you learned into outside?
A little bit because it’s totally different styles as far as the equipment and everything like that. I think when I did it in there: I was really fascinated just because there was so much prison art that use to come out every day. And you know, kind of living in that era, you always respected that. I knew I wanted to tattoo right away. I just wanted to try, you know? So I borrowed some machine and ink and I learned how to make the ink and the machine and started doing it myself, just to see the process- to see how deep I had to go and how bad it hurt. I just kept doing it and doing it and doing it and then I started to get a lot of interest, like my roommates would get fascinated and say, “Oh, man. Can you do one on me?” And I would just try it and the next thing you know, within about maybe 3 to 6 months, I got really kind of recognized in there for just the simple stuff I did and I hadn’t been tattooing that long. I started getting more and more requests.
I’m guessing you made an income?
Oh, yeah. That’s how I survived in there. I didn’t really have anybody to take care of me so that was definitely a plus. You just have to go by the rules: you know, prison politics and stuff like that.
Let me ask you this- how similar is tattoo politics to prison politics? Some people would have you believe that there are hierarchies but they’re not really enforcing them like they are inside, they’re just suggested.
Yeah, they’re suggested. In there, it’s very, very strict; you know whom you can tattoo and whom you can’t. As long as you stay within the guidelines and you know your place, everything will be okay. I think there are a lot of people who would love to have that kind of power on the outside. I think there are a lot of people who would love to be able to decide who could tattoo whom. Yeah.
Learning the way that you did, and being able to use tattooing to make your life better, good things are happening right away for you then. The moment you kind of get into it, you’re already using it as a technology to make a life with. Oh yes, yes. That’s fascinating and you transferred that to something real on the outside. Yeah and to be honest, I was doing so well in there, and I did almost 7 years in there, about 3 months before I got released, I was getting kind of worried. Reality kind of hit me and I was like, “Oh my God. What am I going to do out there? I have no real trade.” I never looked at it as a money making thing. you know? It was more of a survival thing. It was more something that I liked, kind of very underground, you know? You didn’t want to tell too many people and stuff like that. I had no idea this was going to be my career option, you know? I didn’t have any kind of skill and I was worried. I remember calling my mom one time and telling her, “You know, I think I just wanna stay here.” Really- I had nothing. I thought. “What am I going to do? I’m not going to live off my parents.” I saw so many guys go out and come in because of that. They would go out and come right back in. Sometimes tattooing just kind of happens to you. You don’t even have to necessarily seek it out. It just starts happening organically. You have an interest in it and it grows outward from you, from your interest. Sometimes you can spin that into 24 years of tattooing. That’s pretty fascinating, you know? That’s pretty interesting. Yeah. It’s crazy how I just kind of stuck with it and I transitioned from the guitar string to the Huck Spaulding machine.
Did you just order a kit when you got out?
I ordered a kit when I got out. I used to have a lot of those magazines that I saved up from when I was in prison.
So you got to see tattoo magazines?
Oh yeah, we did. That’s how I learned who was who.
This was the 80s?
Yeah- ’89 is when I started. Brian Everett… Back then I would always get Outlaw Biker because they had the Brian Everett… Remember Cap? Cap Szumski? section on tattoos, remember? Yeah. Often times, it was printed black and white on newspaper. Still, I thought, “That’s pretty cool, man. Look at that skull.” Yeah. And I love Leo Zulueta. I love him. That guy has made so much money for tattooing. If there’s anyone that’s under-regarded for his contribution, I think its Leo. And again, with Leo, it started with an individual’s interest in it. This is what’s fascinating to me- you have Yeah, I think Tattoo Flash just barely came out for the first time. Let’s a natural attraction to it, you have a natural ability and over the see, International, of course. I think International was in ’91? Was it ’91? That was a big deal. It was like a monthly version of Tattoo Time where you got to see the great tattoos that you never saw before. Suddenly, you could see those every month. That was a big deal. I think that’s probably when you first saw Filip. years, your technique has gotten beautiful, so you’ve worked hard. You combined what you had with what you could do but it always starts with the individual. Then the excitement grows outward to the people around them. I think that’s what you’re describing for yourself a little bit, that your friends said, “I’ll get that, so you started doing your friends tattoos, whoever you’re sharing a space with? Then you got out- did you work for someone? You know what, I never worked for any body. I really wish that I would have. I should have gone to a shop in the beginning for an apprenticeship, I kind of regret that I didn’t. I think that’s why it kind Yeah, yes Filip and everybody else. Paul Booth, Deano Cook, Tom of took me so long to get where I am, you know? Everything is self- Renshaw. taught. Yeah and I love Eddy Deutsche. He was big at the time, and of Do you feel that if you had a structured environment it would have course. Jack Rudy. progressed faster?
Yes, all the people that I read about, I should have just reached out to some of those people. I feel like if I would have tried hard enough, it would have made things easier. Why didn’t you? “Man, you’re doing a good job.” If it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing well. Tell me about when you got home. When I got out in ’95, I was still on parole for an additional 3 years after that so I was on parole until ’98. Is this in California? This was California. I had a buddy that I met in prison that I tattooed. He called me out of the blue I don’t know. I was just kind of always intimidated by it. I just never did. I never knew saying that he had a shop in North Carolina. He anybody and I just kind of did it. kind of invited me to visit him, so I went out there and visited. When I got back, he got locked up, so It’s a strange thing. We see and read these things about exceptional tattooists, and it I had to go back there and help him out and save can be off-putting. I get intimidated too, especially back then. I guess it’s kind of our that shop. That’s kind of how it started for me. take on our own work. I had a guy that brought me in but he wasn’t much of a teacher, That’s how I moved to North Carolina and I stayed so you kind of made it up as you went along. That sort of created a sense of, “Well, there for a whole year while he was locked up and they’re on a different plane than me. They’re on a different level. I shouldn’t go bother I held the shop down. these people. When I get good enough, maybe I’ll go talk to them.” Right? Yeah, yeah. In a way, it’s sort of respectful. You don’t want to bother them. I guess it’s important that if you think someone is really good, it feels good if they can look back and say, And you just walked into it? Yeah, I just walked into it, man.
Yeah, you got thrown in right there. It was mid ’90s so it was probably small size tattoos, a bunch a day, or something like that? A lot of flash tattoos. Cherry Creek was really big, you know? Very popular, that stuff was like a brush fire. Oh, yeah, I made so much money off of that. It was crazy. They would just walk back and you would say, “I know which one you want,” you know? (laughs) That was fascinating stuff. That was a moment. One of the things that I had a tough time with, I don’t know if you had a tough time with it, was that whole face-to-face human aspect of it. When you start, you’re kind of tattooing people you know. But when you start getting random strangers coming in, that’s a different vibe. Did that affect you at all? It was a little bit hard because I wasn’t really used to being so open and talking to people. I was very shy and I was very angry when I was younger. I didn’t know how to communicate with people. That was a little challenging, you know, customer service. It’s always retail on some level, especially in a street shop, because they’re going to be in an hour or two, maybe. They’re there and then they’re gone. That’s hard if you’re not ready to do that level of work. You may want to do the tattooing, but you also have to do the other job.
How could you explain it to those people that are looking you in the eye, Yeah. I think so. you know? Honestly, the pressure is really kind of what makes me strive. It’s almost like, “Bring it on.” The more somebody will give me, the more I’m awake, the more I become alive. That’s why I don’t really do anything too simple anymore. probably can’t do anything simple anymore. I agree. If someone comes to me for flash, I’d probably screw it up right now. I The results are excellent. I think if you ask everyone, you’ll get a different answer every time, but what do you think makes a good tattoo? Oh, what makes a good tattoo? The overall look of it. I understand that everybody has their own style: everyone has their own thing that they do. There’s no right or wrong for me when I look at a tattoo. You know, that guy’s style is his style, whether he does it that way or whether it’s totally different from you. But I think a good tattoo is what the artist creates, you know, and that people recognize that. I totally agree with that. This is what we were talking about earlier, before we recorded. There’s a popular idea that we have to do everything but in fact, and in practice, when you start really developing your thing, maybe Give me some more particulars. What qualities should a you can’t snap out of it and do that walk-in. I think that’s really natural. tattoo have when you’re looking at it to make you say in your When you have to get so deeply in to do this work, yeah, you’re going to be mind, “Okay, this is a good tattoo,”? Obviously, it has to be in that mindset and that’s what’s giving you your energy. What you said is well built. The craft has to be there. interesting- the challenge is the energy. Right? That’s what gives you the energy?
Of course, with black and gray, I think it should be super smooth. The dark values should be dark and the light values should be the lightest they can be. From my experience, a lot of it has to do with the machines and the needles and the ink. This is all stuff that you learn as you go. You try all this different stuff of what works and what doesn’t and you finally come to where you like certain things. You use coil machines? Yes. You make all your own needles? Yes. Everyone’s ingredients are pretty much the same. I think we all kind of use, what is it, witch hazel, distilled water, rose water is good because it takes the redness out, and some people put a little glycerin in there, I think, to make it slippery. Yes. I’ve heard of that before. Over the years, I’ve seen where you’ve really grown your ability to make those larger gray fields. That’s a real challenge. Yeah. That’s a big challenge. That’s a big one, right? That’s the one when you want to start using the body and putting tattoos where you want them, and you have to support them with gray. That’s difficult. I mean, just watching a lot of people like yourself and Filip Leu, using the placement and stuff like that, that kind of helped my stuff too, you know? I think placement is the most fun, or one of the most fun parts of the job. If you put it in the wrong place, you could do a really good tattoo, but it doesn’t feel like all it can be. Yeah. I think to me, placement is everything with a lot of my larger scale tattoos and even small stuff. I always suggest to my clients that if you do it a little bit bigger and fill the area more, it looks nicer, you know? Or I’ll tell them, “This should go here instead of where you originally wanted it.” I will suggest it. I don’t really force them. But at the end, they almost always go, “Man, I’m glad that you told me that. This is so much better. It’s more powerful here.” Absolutely. There’s a middle space between trying to control the client and doing nothing. There’s that place where you can suggest. Then you have the body of work to refer back to and say, “Look, this works.” It’s great at the point where we’re at; we get a lot of people trusting us. You get to exert your influence even more. For sure, I’m so glad to be where I am right now because almost 100% of the clients say, “This is the basic idea I have. This is kind of what I want and the rest is you.” It feels so much better if they’re not too picky and telling you exactly where to put it. I think there’s that added thrill where you really can’t waste that opportunity. This guy’s gonna give you this space and you might be tired that day, maybe you’ve gotta take the kids somewhere and you’ve been working all day, but you’re working on that project and you go with that extra energy because look at this opportunity in front of you. Once you get the ability to tattoo and you have that up and running, really what you’re issuing are ideas. I look and I say, “I like Robert’s ideas. I love where that went. Look where he ended it.” These are all those choices. That’s the good part. What is difficult is when you make up something that you believe in and they want to alter it. Then you run into that thing, which is how much influence should I exert? Sometimes clients have good ideas. When it comes to the grays, you have your own recipe for how you like to dilute I really love working with clients as far as their ideas them. You make a little potion. Everyone has a sort of secret potion. (laughs) Yes. go. I try to tell them, “Give me as much input as possible. Even though I want to do it my way, I still want to kind of connect with your ideas.” So it’s notthere. I kind of went the hard way, but I’m still learning. We’ve talked a little bit about the past and the present, let’s switch to something about the future. If I understand correctly, 3 or 4 weeks from when we’re recording this, you’re going to open a new place. Oh, yes. That’s been a project that I’ve had in the works for maybe 3 years. We were looking at different buildings and trying to negotiate a lease and stuff like that. We were working on one and at the end, it didn’t come through, so finally about 3 or 4 shops that we looked through, this was finally the spot where the landlord loved us and really wanted us to be there and really wanted to help us. So everything that we put into the shop, you know, all the money and the energy and stuff like that, is finally coming along. It’s about almost a year in the making, that location by itself. It’s a lot of stress, you know? There is a lot to do, it’s 4000 square feet in a very visible, high traffic area. This is Las Vegas? Well, you work so hard to get to where you’re at and everybody respects your work and regards who you are and stuff like that. I don’t want to lose that in just another big shop, you know? I really don’t want to lose focus on the quality. So no matter what the shop is going to be, it still has to have very high standards. You’re going to take the crew that you have now, but as it grows and as it changes, I’m sure it will probably expand. Yes. We have about 10 booths right now and we’re going to be doing laser removal. We have about 3 guys right now, besides me, that are really solid guys and I want to look for a little bit more of other types of skills, other artists that are doing different things and kind of bring them on board. But you know, at the same time, I want to make sure that they’re the right fit: good people and stuff like that. You told me that it’s really important to you. It’s very important. It’s probably number one, before the work, honestly. Yeah, this is in the China Town area in Vegas. It’s probably less than I suppose the idea is, get your thinking and behavior right and then a mile away from the Strip. I’m excited about that. The photos I saw were incredible. What you’re doing with the space is incredible, but you told me, the first thing you said to me was, “It’s all about the quality of work, no matter how nice the shop is.” I think you’re making a beautiful place. I thought it was really cool that the first thing you said was, “Yeah, that’s nice and that’s important, but it’s nothing if we don’t have the quality.” 60 | TATTOO ARTIST MAGAZINE your technical ability will grow. If you have a good disposition and you really get it, you get to work at better places around better people. That’s the reward- the experience itself is the reward. If you have a negative outlook, you will get different results. Do you remember when we started-back when we started, and I think this is kind of funny, one of the most popular phrases you ever heard was, “Leave your attitude at the door.” It was a bit corny, but it made sense. That was everywhere.
Those tattooers for all those years understood that when you get into the world of tattooing, some people bring out the inner asshole. They would say right up front, “Hey man, customers and artists, leave that shit at the door. Don’t come in and be that way here.” I think over the years, that got lost. You don’t see that sign up. I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen that. I think it was “95. It’s so true. I think, why you have an attitude, you know? You’re doing well and tattooing is taking off so much more than 10 or 15 years ago. There shouldn’t be any attitude. You’re doing stuff that you love to do. Why not do the best work you can and make the customer happy? Show everybody else what you can do. Your formula makes sense. You start with great tattooing. You build a good shop with what looks to me like an excellent environment. I think anyone would love to work in that environment, the way you’ve set it up. The idea is that the shop is valuable enough to attract those quality people. The flakes and hacks don’t have enough seriousness about them to understand the value of the opportunity. Those that do will be attracted to it. The staff might change because in tattooing, people come and go. I’m very blessed to be where I am, especially having been through what I’ve been through. I want to make it the best shop that I can possibly make it. I want to make it to where everybody is always going to want to stay, you know? Even if they think about leaving 3 to 5 years from now, I want to make it to where they’re going to love staying there. I want everybody to get along. That’s the whole thing too, it’s not like I’m going to hire somebody just because I think they’re good. I want to make sure I feel them out. I feel like I have a good judge of character and I kind of want to make sure the guys are okay with it. It’s kind of like a family thing, you know? Right now, being where we are, it’s a little hole in the wall place, 800 square feet, only 3 guys, doing hardly any advertising: we’re getting overwhelmed with work, honestly. I want to put the money and everything that we make at the shop into advertising and attracting more clients to see everybody’s work, you know? By the time people read this you’ll be open. Yeah, next month.
That’s going to feel good. I’m kind of nervous in a way, but super excited more. I’ve never been the type of guy to put the spotlight on me. I think I’m kind of nervous too, you know? It’s an evolution, your whole career. I don’t think a tattoo artist is anything. They’re always becoming something. Everyday you become better, sometimes you become worse. But you’ve become a husband, you’re a father, you’re a brother, you’re becoming a caretaker for these people that took care of you and you’re always becoming a different artist. You’re always evolving your aesthetic; you’re always evolving your craft. This is kind of another stage of that becoming, but it is kind of upfront. You know what’s weird too? Now that I’m in my early 40’s, I’m 42 now, I feel like this shop is going to allow me more time to be even more creative with my art and allow me to go back to school. I thought it was too late, you know, but it’s kind of like I’m really leaning toward establishing my art more, kind of like you. You also have a gallery space built into this. Is it going to be all types of people; it’s not just going to be tattooists? Are you going to put up all kinds of stuff, or is it only going to be tattoo art? No, it’s going to be all kinds of art, whatever we do to showcase it. 62 | TATTOO ARTIST MAGAZINE We plan on doing an art show or something like that every 3 months. or every 6 months or something. I’ve never done it before but I’m really excited about that. Well, free booze and good art… (laughs) I mean that’s the thing. even though this world is saturated with images, good art still rings out. I think it’s amazing, man. If you put out the good stuff, you’ll get those people to come to you. It still works and if it’s underneath a good business and it’s propping up a good business structure, I think the clients will really love it. I agree, especially being in Vegas because there are so many shops and so many up and coming people. I think because it’s Vegas, it’s more of a hit and run kind of thing. Isn’t there a guy out there that owned a bunch of shops? One guy who had like, I heard from someone, owned 10 locations or something? Yeah, and they’re totally not into tattoos, which is kind of weird. Something like that. I’m a little bit against. They actually hate tattooing: they don’t have a single tattoo… Yeah, it’s just a business to them.
It’s like they own 10 shops and kind of slave out the artists. They just burn through the bottom part of tattooing. Yeah, exactly, they’re just trying to get a piece of that pie, which is very much a majority of the pie there. Yeah. Unfortunately, I agree with that. I think that’s because I see tattooing as a business and I use it to make my livelihood and I’m fine with that but I also see it as something special. These guys that don’t feel that way, they are cynical and they run those cut throat businesses and they’re ripping off the tattooers that work for them as much as the clients. I think if a guy can open a shop that is well regarded by real tattooists, you’ve done a great thing. Anyone can be a piece of shit. Exactly. It means the world to me to have my peers and people in the community respect what I’m doing. I know that’s important to you. I didn’t come out to just make money. Oh yeah, everything we’ve got, man. That’s the risk and the cleverness that when it works, man, it’s a beautiful thing. I wish you the best of luck. Thanks you, man. If you’re ever in Vegas, give us a chance and check us out. We’re hoping to have a lot of great tattoo artists like you there. We want to focus on quality art and give something different to Vegas. It’s going to be a place that people are going to want to visit and be a part of. I know that you’ll run it with class and great energy. Thank you very much, Kore. It’s always a pleasure. Robert Can be found here: There’s no reason both things can’t happen. You can be successful and have an upstanding, ethical place that can live up to that, like www.skindesigntattoos.com you say, the acknowledgement of others that you’ve made a good thing, people that you respect. It’s difficult to pull off but when it works, it’s a beautiful thing. I know you’ve expressed to me that this is really organic. You saved up what you earned in tattooing and put it back in to your future.